I hope Senator Colbeck attends the school forums presented by the Northville Board of Education on Monday, April 11, 2011 at Meads Mill Middle School from 7-9 p.m. and Wednesday, April 13, 2011 at Hillside Middle School from 7-9 p.m.

Perhaps he can tell us all THEN how his and Governor Snyder's smart spending plan will work and address directly our concerns. We look forward to your attendance.

I attended the Wayne-Westland forum Thursday evening, and heard Senator Colbeck's comments that charter schools educate students equally to our public schools for 25% less cost. (Since he also claimed we were in the lowest 10% for achievement nationally, I don't know if this is much of a bragging point.) I was left with the following questions (which I will pursue - trust me . . . ). 1) Why don't charter schools take the MEAP? Wouldn't it be easier to compare apples to apples if we were all eating apples? 2) How do charter schools handle special education students? 3) An high school program is more expensive than elementary school, and districts allocate their budgets accordingly. I know that the charter school programs in Canton do not include upper elementary education. How much of the 25% savings is due to the fact? 4) How do charter schools explain their efficiencies? What are the suggestions embedded in this claim? And finally, 5) How are teachers evaluated at charter schools?

Pat:
As you and I know the easy short term solution to any problem is slash and burn rather than reengineer or reinvent processes that work. I have done in the past with the Governor’s Office your caucus etc., we need to start using process improvement. I and I am sure many Fellows of ASQ would work with School Districts to solve their money issues and we can demonstrate how investment with Cost of Quality, ISO for Education and or Baldrige for Education will improve the outcomes while significantly reducing cost. I have even talked to Governors head of Process improvement with no interest to date.

I am open to new ideas of funding our public schools. I'm happy that you want to reward good teachers. I would be careful if I were you, however, when speaking about what a great job Michelle Rhee did in Washington DC:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/richard-whitmires-account-of-michelle-rhees-schools-tenure/2011/03/15/AFmwhd2C_story_1.html

We have fantastic schools in Northville, haven't you heard that? I am very happy with the quality of education my children received here. Perhaps other Michigan districts would do as well if they had what Northville has: Very low poverty levels; parents with the time, energy, and education to help their children; and a LOT of parent volunteers to help where needed in the schools.

Lower the pay and benefits that teachers receive and you will get less promising young people wanting to be teachers. When I was young, there were very few male teachers because teaching did not pay a living wage, so it was basically a woman's profession. Things have changed over the years. Yes, teachers have fantastic benefits, better than anyone else has in this state - so yes, it is probably time to readjust their health care and retirement benefits. But remember, there are long term repercussions to these types of changes. Tread lightly.

Thank you to those who responded to my questions. My interest isn't in discrediting, but rather to have a dialogue that consists of more than anti-union / anti-charter school rhetoric. I agree with Kurt Heise's comments that a new kind of conversation needs to occur. If there are lessons to be learned from charter schools, we should learn them; our schools will only be stronger for it. My questions are simply the next step in that process, at least for myself.

Yes, Stephanie I agree completely.

I am a Democrat but you have earned my vote! I completely agree with your opinion that "Our current system of teacher retention and compensation is outdated and unsustainable. It does not recognize and reward excellent teachers. We need to shift the focus away from tenure, last-in first-out policies and automatic step increases and onto teacher performance and effectiveness. Excellent teachers should be rewarded and encouraged." My oldest son has a learning disability. Some of the teachers that have helped him the most are now facing layoffs and this angers me. I do not want to see these teachers leave our district but this is decided by “old school” negotiations and contracts. Please continue to support the “new school” way of thinking.

Canton Parent, I agree - this is what is totally wrong about tenure. Teachers need to have some protection against having the highest paid teacher fired first, too. I believe that is part of tenure's original intention.

I would like to see some good way of measuring a teacher's success other than constant testing, which I don't think is really good for the children. And, in Michelle Rhee's case, leaves the door open for possible cheating.

At yesterday evening's meeting, not a single "teachers' union" member spoke up, threatened or made any of the other outlandish assumptions made by Sen. Colbeck. All I heard was the School Board struggling to reconcile the loss of school aid per-pupil funding -- a big chunk will be diverted to Higher Ed. in Gov. Snyder's budget, a direct attack on Proposal A's intent to ensure property taxes ONLY go to K-12 education -- and discussing what might have to happen if nothing changes between now and June 30.

Were the numbers presented last night scary? Oh yes. But a "scare tactic" by the Board? Hardly. Perhaps Sen. Colbeck will attend Wednesday's meeting at Hillside Middle School (his colleague, Rep. heise, made it to Monday's meeting and, one hopes, came away with a better understanding of the issues).

If you want to attract businesses to Michigan, it is essential that you have good PUBLIC schools. Governor Snyder's proposed cuts to education, shifting funds that have historically been used for K-12 to the community colleges and universities is unacceptable. This is a crisis that has been created by Governor Snyder's priorities and it is one that is short sighted. Businesses will not move to Michigan if the public schools offered here are not good. I attended last night's forum and was impressed with the school board's analysis of the crisis and its willingness to put everything on the table to deal with the crisis. I walked away with a deep concern not only our children, our property values, but for the profession of teaching and how these cuts will surely dsicourage bright, motivated and dedicated people from becoming teachers.

Jerry, Canton Charter Academy spends 90% of what PCCS spends per pupil and does not even have a high school. Where is the savings in that?

Jerry, the governor wants to take money from the K-12 public schools, and take money away from the universities, and tax pensions, so that he can give businesses a tax break. That is what all of this is about.

I would not be against this quite so much if I thought it would work to create jobs - but history shows that it doesn't work. A robust economy creates jobs. A strong middle class creates jobs. You do not create a strong middle class, and a robust economy by giving businesses tax breaks.

While I like your analogy of having a dollar that needs to go 100 different ways, why is it that we need to give more and more and more of that dollar, both as a state and as a country to businesses?

I would love to see some real education reform, but what we are doing here is eating our seed corn.

I do think that the teachers will need to contribute more to their health care, and probably the days of funded pensions are over. Those days are over for everyone else in this state, and I think that is what upsets the taxpayers.

I am agree with Denise's comments on history and what creates jobs and what doesn't. It's time to stop listening to the talking points of people who have their own agendas and to start implementing what works. I also agree that there must be significant changes and contributions to teachers' health care benefits and a revamp of their retirement system. Corporations have learned the hard way that legacy retirement costs can disable and destroy a company. But why is it always the middle class, the working poor and our children who are squeezed?

Thumbs up, Susan - like I have posted on Facebook right now:

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither.

We need to identify the "enemy" and do something about it. Our priorities as a nation are so messed up, all because we need campaign finance reform. If we could reform how the politicians got their money, maybe they could start working for the citizens instead of "the enemy".

And if the politicians were working for the people right now, my guess is that our schools would be in great shape. Because every kid deserves a good education. And that starts with good teachers and a good environment in which to learn.

Jerry - I'm sorry but I do not follow your line of thinking. If you decrease the tax rate the state takes in less money in taxes, because the business is taxed based on it's net income, is it not? It's been a long time since I've taken accounting, ha ha...so that 100,000 taxed at 5% is 5,000. You cut it to 4% and the state gets 4,000. OOPS! Need to make up the shortfall! Let's go tax some old people.

What you seem to be saying is that since the company has more money, then, they will invest it in Michigan? Usually, they pay their shareholders more, and take larger salaries, maybe if we are all lucky, put more money into R&D, but there is no guarantee they will hire more people, pay the people that work there more, or anything else. Lately, as corporations make more, the executives give themselves larger and larger bonuses. That is a fact. I won't go into how they are making more money by offshoring jobs, and cutting costs to the point that their products are nearly worthless....

Bonus Depreciation has nothing to do with tax cuts as far as I know.

When you say that the tax cut "allows more money to spend" are you talking about the company or consumers? Remember, the consumers are not getting a tax cut, we are having our taxes raised, if we are on social security or collect a pension - so spending is less, not more on the consumer side. We have to pay for this giveaway!

One thing that will help is the Capital Improvement (Sinking Fund) Millage, which is coming to a vote on Tuesday, May 3.

Even though Sinking Fund millage funds cannot, by law, be used for day-to-day operating expenses, it is nevertheless vital to the Northville Schools -- especially if something fails, like a building roof or a heating system.

Without the Millage funds, capital improvements and repairs would either have to be delayed, or be paid for from the general fund. Either way, it would directly impact students.

So VOTE YES on Tuesday, May 3.

Remember. For-profit charters keep their accounting books private. Why? Because they don't want you to know how much they are lining thier pockets full of tax dollars. Also, if they say they are non-profit, don't be fooled. The administration is just rewarding itself with huge salaries and short-changing everyone else. They will reward themselves with a salary that is prob twice the PCCS admin and yet only manage one tenth the number of schools. Jerry, I have to ask. Why do you hate teachers? You seem to want to destroy eveything that is positive about the profession. Wow. Way to support your fellow man.

Thank you Senator Colbeck for articulating the viewpoint of many parents.

The majority of teachers at PCCS are talented professionals passionate about educating. There's also a minority of teachers who are on the opposite end of the spectrum. Every parent knows the good from the bad. We fill out forms at the end of the year choosing our words carefully hoping that our son or daughter are one of the lucky ones. And when it turns out to be our turn with the less than desirable teacher, we tolerate a year of busy work, kid(s) that dread waking up every day, and witness a lost year. Attempts to work with the Principal are fruitless, after all the administraton has no tolls to reward or develop teachers, the union has made sure of that. Even the other teachers in the building know who among them is a liability.

Make up all the lies you want about charters, but the truth is teachers are rewarded financially based on students' growth. Students have a plethora of extra curriculars to choose from, all for a nominal cost, both athletic and academic. With kids coming in from mulitple districts, the percentage of minority students is greater. Teachers collaborate on what's working and make changes where needed, rather than working in a vacuum. And there's a wait list of 2,000 deep for the three charters in Canton. PCCS and the MEA could learn a lot from Charters and there would no longer be any need for them.

If PCCS could attract additional students through schools of choice, why hasn't the district opened up schools of choice (to families other than staff members)? Why would the district turn their back on additional revenue?

In both traditional and charter schools, there are parties that walk away with a profit. Teachers, adminstrators, vendors, non teaching staff, etc. And for most, that profit is very well deserved. The union likes to wave the profit flag around but fails to mention that for years their members have received automatic step increases, as well as, contractual increases; without meeting a single objective.

What could we learn from charters? That the NWEA test is far more valuable than MEAP and worth the additional cost. That students learn more when they are grouped by skill level. That a uniform discipline policy for the school benefits students and teachers. That students enjoy academic extra curriculars in addition to sports. Just to name a few.

Your point about school board may be valid, and it's an issue I'd like to learn more about. So far, what I have found is an Administration that's responsive, replacing the need of going to the board. Our charter is in the process of selecting a new board, those running are all parents, and I hope to learn more about this process soon.

There are valid points on both sides of the debate that are worth exploring further; but many of the points are bull dozed by propoganda. I would advocate for tests that measure growth (MEAP does not) to really determine what's working; and programs that educate/incentivize parents in area inundated with poverty to get involved, perhaps we need to invest more in basic services in high poverty areas, but given the corruption in districts such as DPS, we need to find a reliable organization that's up to the task.

My response to your brother and friend would be that while it's disturbing, it's anecdotal. We can't put PCCS and the Detroit Public Schools in the same league and the same holds true for charters. Some Charters have been successful in Detroit and others haven't. Some of the founders of companies that manage Charters were successful in other businesses previously, so without further info it's hard to make a determination - but I'll concede that your assertion is possible. I'd love to have greater transparency, I'd like to know that Charter School teachers are making a fair wage, I'd like to know the reward potential; but it's unlikely that this will be released. So, I have to accept this, at least for know, while observing my kids excited about school in a way that they weren't before.

If traditional schools could find a way to measure, reward, and retain effective teachers; while developing or dismissing ineffective teachers; the need for Charters would diminish significantly if not altogether.

Lastly, the benefits that were until recently being provided to traditional teachers were unsustainable. A pension fund works as long as the base paying into it is growing. Many families have left Michigan, and those that remain are either having fewer kids, waiting longer to have kids, or not having kids at all. Under these conditions, there's not enough staff to support a defined benefit pension program. So, either taxpayers have to make up the difference...

...or benefits must be cut. Heath costs of increased so much as well - it's not sustainable for districts to shoulder the entire increase. Some teachers unions are just now making concessions in these areas and they deserve credit.

Thank you for sharing your thought and I hope you and your family can make up some lost ground as the ecomomy slowly improves.

I challenge him to do an in depth study of charter school teachers. He has been told about charter corruption. Will he try to stop it? If you want the truth go ask the teachers. Afterall, if you were doing a study on what weaponry worked on the battlefield who would you ask? The CEO of a company who is out to make a profit off of the weapon or the soldier in the field? Who do you think knows better? The one who aims to get rich from the weapon or the soldier who tells you it is an ineffective weapon and should never be used? Colbeck needs to find out the truth.

DeeDee,
Detroit Merit, University Prep, Walton Charter (Pontiac), and Fortis (Ypsilanti) are all examples of well run charters that are out performing the traditional schools in their districts by leaps and bounds. It's interesting that you mention Cass, Renaissance, and King - they're the closest thing to charters DPS has - magnet schools that some would say pull the best from the district (one of the MEA's favorite unproven claims about charters), and they do well relative to other DPS schools yet their MEAP scores are still significantly below the state average. Which brings us to Denise Nash's point, until we address the need for basic services in these high poverty districts; success will be limited regardless of what changes are made to schools.

Pensions only work when the number of employees paying into them increase over time. It doesn't matter if it's the Big 3 or the public schools. With fewer kids there are fewer teachers and less revenue to support the retirees. It sounds like you would be willing to supplement these funds with your own tax money, and I'm sure there are many that would. I'm not one of them; I'd rather save for my own retirement than pay for someone else.

To follow up on unsustainable Pensions: according to it's latest financial documents the Michigan Public School Employees Retirement System is underfunded by $45.3 Billion dollars. Divide that number by Michigan's population (9,876,187), and that equates to $4586 for every man, woman and child.

Are you prepared to write check for $4586 for each member of your family in order to maintain teacher's retirement benefits? One might argue that business could shoulder this burden; but their additional costs would be passed on to consumers (us) or result in fewer jobs.

More food for thought: The Governor's proposed state budget for 2012-2013 came to $48 Billion. So, the cuts required to make the underfunded $45 Billion would be severe, even if spread over time.

Who is University Prep outperforming? Their scores stink. If you tell me about graduation rates and college acceptance I know all about that game. Remember, I know many, many people who have worked in charters (I know someone that worked there). There is a lot of pressure to pass undeserving students-thus graduation rates look so high. Also, anyone can be accepted to any fly by night college-presto! 100% college acceptance. When you see a dog and pony show on CNN touting charter success don't be fooled. Yes. No kids in Detroit want to go to a Detroit charter highs. They go there as a default. The public high schools there offer far superior curricula and extra curricular activities.But I definitely concede that DPS has its share of troubled schools. I think if the public were to see how many of these charters are run they would be shocked. Cultures of fear and intimidation for the staff. Extreme discipline policies where children are suspended one after the other. So many are expelled. Basically, you dump the trouble in and keep the good. So much goes into trying to manipulate the testing pool to try to raise scores. As far as the state pensions go-everyone knows that things have been purposely cut by the state and fed gov't. Yes both parties have failed in too many ways to solve the problem of poverty. It's too bad Obama supported charters-he is so wrong for unleashing this in the most needy communities. But crony capitalism exists everywhere. The argument about businesses

is baloney. Businesses in this country are awash in money. There are so many large companies that are overflowing with money. No one from either party seems to have the guts to stand up against them. They fail and then go to DC with their hands out asking for corporate welfare and as a result get their money and bonuses. Good luck with your own 401k pension. Mine has been smashed to pieces in the downturn. Well, one day when you are in your retirement hoping your social security will help you get by (if it hasn't been raided by cronies) if you look up in the sky and see a Lear jet fly over just remember it might be one of those charter owners you supported years ago.Have fun eating your pork and beans while he is eating the caviar he bought years ago with your tax dollars.

It's all very sad when you get down to it. Debbie, you are right. We really haven't done enough to do all the right things. It is all about business. All of Colbeck's talking points really resemble legislative proposals that have been introduced in several states by a group called ALEC. I really think this is where he is getting these ideas. He needs to really just take an in depth look into the problems. The whole charter issue should have been heavily studied. The cyber charter idea is absolutely absurd and is an absolute rip off of public tax dollars. I can't even believe this is even an issue in this state. I really wonder what on earth people in Lansing are thinking!

DeeDee, your arguement is rife with generalizations and thin on data to back it up. I see no reason to continue this debate, unless you list valid sources. I wouldn't rely on Social Security to support my wife and I in retirement, but that may be a generational difference. We've all made errors in judgement in the past 20 years, living beyond our means, and now we're paying the price - banks deserve a lot of the blame but we bought what they sold; if we continue to just blame Wall Street we will have failed to learn from our mistakes.

@DeeDee, exactly - Colbeck is in ALEC's pocket all the way, 100%. The big push for Charters and Cyber schools is (IMO) subterfuge for getting religious oriented schools paid for by the state. You wait and see if I'm right. It is very big on the DeVos agenda and they are writing very very large checks.

Denise,
Which charters are teaching religion? Have you observed this?

Special interests fund campaigns - case in point the MEA and Democrats.

To Quote Myself: The big push for Charters and Cyber schools is (IMO) subterfuge for getting religious oriented schools paid for by the state. You wait and see if I'm right. It is very big on the DeVos agenda and they are writing very very large checks.

Did I say Michigan is doing this now? I said, "You wait and see if I'm right". There are states further along the Charter School path than us - Florida and Texas are two. There was a NYTimes article a few months back about Texas and how Turkish people are building charters in Houston - they even bring in construction companies from Turkey. I'll see if I can find that article. In the meantime:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/09/1004935/-Florida-Christian-school-magically-becomes-public-charter-school

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20101122-charter-schools-with-ties-to-religious-groups-raise-fears-about-state-funds_use.ece

Yes, Special Interest fund campaigns - Case in Point, The Koch Brothers, the Walton Family, The Devos Family, and on and on and on and on. We need to take back our government from these special interests and corporations as well. That is what the Occupy Wall Street movement is all about. Elections have been purchased long enough. I'd rather live by what my fellow citizens feel is important, rather than the Devos people OR the MEA.

Well, today I was thinking about dswan's original characterization of PCCS and feel compelled to defend its reputation. I have had two children in the district and have had absolutely no problems with teachers or principals. My children don't get into trouble and do their work. I just don't have any issues. But tonight, you will read about my friend's experience in a charter school. This is NOT propaganda or bs. This is REAL. He has worked there for 4 years. In those 4 years there have been 26 math teachers who have either been fired or quit. (There are only 8 positions in the dept). There have been 20 English teachers who have been fired or quit. There have been 2 Special Ed. directors fired. There have been a total of 9 building Lead Principals. All of which have been fired. There have been at least 4 asst. principals fired. Nothing ever progresses because people are constantly fired. But guess what? The CEO is never fired. He has appointed a board full of friends and rules with impunity. His wife runs the "separate" company that hires the teachers that supplies the school. Of course she is never fired. Their own family members are part of the upper management. But of course they are never fired. They make incompetent decision one after another and yet they stay in power. The school has no library and virtually no tools for the teachers to instruct with and yet the CEO is hell bent on bringing in cameras in every classroom. Why? So he can sit in his office and spy

on the teachers. My friend has had a broken overhead for three years and yet that doesn't matter. There is funding for cameras in the classroom. The art teacher has written requests for art supplies 3 times and all have been denied. She has had to buy some of her own supplies-pathetic. Another friend was accused of doing something by a student but was exonerated. The day he returned to work a camera was installed in his room to watch all day. I guess the angle wasn't good enough - a few days later he came into the classroom and saw that the camera was moved. The "CEO" watches cameras and then tells security or the secretary to tell the teachers to not let students out of their seat, how to run classroom, etc. By the way, not one of the people running the place has ever set foot in a classroom as an educator or even has an education degree. Teachers are bullied and intimidated. Teachers have been written up for bizarre reasons. Currently, because the math scores were low at the schools all of the students have been banned from talking at lunch (even 10-12 students) They are forced to work on school work during lunch and tvs in the cafeteria have math problems on them. A new curriculum was forced on the teachers just recently because the old one must not have produced the right results. (Any educator knows how ridiculous this is) Students are suspended regularly and also expelled quite often. The stories go on and on. The upper management does not have to reveal their

people realize what is going on out there. Did you notice that you never see these stories in the media? Yet you see the bashing of DPS and other public schools regularly in the media. But, I have learned that there is no true investigative journalism any more. Sponsors buy programming and the media don't do critical pieces to upset their friends. NBC allowed Bill Gates to put on a complete propaganda show called Education Nation. I knew all of it was complete bs. It would rival anything the old Soviet Union would produce. There is something chilling about the media's silence. Even the local media has done a poor job. Why hasn't anyone told these stories? You only see stories that portray charters as the answers to Americas problems. (This is laughable) I know they are all bought out. Did you know that half of the new DPS Superintendent's salary has been paid for buy "donors" (billionaires who want to dismantle DPS-Eli Broad etc.) Go look at what the man did to the ST. Louis school district from which he was appointed through the force of a billionaire. These districts need tons of help but they are just paving the way for charters to come in. They won't fix their problems. They go far deeper and involve many issues that cannot be solved within the school doors. By lifting the cap on charters you are allowing the vultures to start circling the down and out school districts and mistreat teachers and deceive parents. Don't believe the hype. Beware Highland Park.

Something wicked has been sent your way. It just bothers me that super rich people are going around the country and forcing their will on the people. There is something wrong about completely suspending a school board and ruling with dictatorial power. Do you remember the last DPS superintendent that was brought in to solve DPS' problems? He was paid $450,000 and drove them into deeper debt. Well, my warning to everyone. If you see a piece about charters on the news. Go research the facts. Your were probably given a load of propaganda

Also, there is an atmosphere of some Oweillian 1984 atmosphere. It is just too bizarre. Something must be done.The very people who wave the flag and speak of patriotism are the very ones who are diminishing democracy and civil liberties. What has happened to this country? I just wonder if Colbeck is even aware of what has been going on out there? If a member of his constituency came to him and said he felt his civil liberties were being violated in a charter school would he investigate it or move to put an end to such practices? I just wonder. It seems like politicians no longer work for the people. They seem to pass laws that favor the people who bankroll their campaigns. It just seems like things are worse than ever.

I can tell you there are a lot of people who have been demoralized out there. They graduated from college and hoped for so much more. I know it has taken a toll on people's physical and mental health. Overall, it is just sad.

@DeeDee - you said "They graduated from college and hoped for so much more." Yes, agreed. People don't understand a LOT. My profession is IT. I've seen what cheap labor has done to the profession in the past 15-20 years. It went from a great and interesting way to make a living to working tons of free overtime for mediocre wages. Today, you will hear people ranting because kids don't go into IT any more. Why should they? The incentive is gone. Kids are NOT stupid, in spite of what everyone says.

My daughter is majoring in math at MSU. Her dream is to be a math teacher and cheerleading coach. She will be doing a year of student teaching next year. For Xmas I bought her a book: 101 Careers in Math. I hope she reads the book and decides on a different career. Even though she loves kids and I'm sure she would make a great teacher, there is no appreciation for teachers. I dare anyone that puts teachers down to spend one day in a classroom. They would have all new respect for what teachers do. I did a lot of volunteering when my kids were younger - trust me, I have great respect for teachers. They more than earn their pay and they earn that summer vacation during which they are required to take classes to improve their skill set. It's basically a woman's profession so they are an easy target. Everyone should think long and hard before taking shots, they set a horrible example for their children. The lack of respect carries over to the classroom.

Debbie, I'm sorry your profession has taken a hit. I saw a show on tv about what happened to workers in the IT business and it really is upsetting. It's a shame that it no longer is the desirable job that it once was. As for your daughter, I wish her the best. I hate to say this but I am glad you are encouraging to look at other professions. I have a daughter at MSU too and have told my children to stay away from the teaching profession. It is being turned into a Walmart profession. Low wages, poor benefits, and poor working conditions. When she is looking for a job and if she gets offered a job in a charter school I would advise her not only to say "no" but "HELL NO!" (excuse my language) It will burn her out and will diminish her love of the profession. I would suggest she do long-term substitute teaching in a well established public district. There are a lot of districts who like to hire a recent grad. and hopefully things will go great. It is a tough job even in a great district. Sometimes charters can be used as a way to gain experience. (which can make someone more desirable to a district) She just needs to be extremely careful if she goes this route. If she sees a charter that has a lot of jobs advertised, especially during the year, it's a good sign that is an awful place to work. I know a lot of people who are waiting for the economy to improve, and when that does, they will be running out the doors of their charters.-believe me.

It's interesting the jump here from having evidence of one 'bad' charter school to the assumption that all are just as bad, and thus, the golden days of teaching are behind us. Just as school districts and traditional schools vary in quality, so do charters - and it's based not only on teachers, administration, and curriculum; but also the involvement of the families. So, what's a parent to do? Research, research , research. In Plymouth-Canton, we have the benefit of both a solid district and strong charters; so learn about your neighborhood school and the charters. Which offers the best fit for your child? What may be best for the kid next door (or even the kid in the next bedroom) isn't necessarily the best for your child.

I think DeeDee's inside info of the Charter she describes is valuable and supports the need for greater transparency and a review of the authorization process.

Teaching, in general, is going through a transformation - where we end up is still unknown; but I wouldn't discourage my kids from entering the profession if they are passionate about it.

I also think PCCS is aware of the threat the Charters are presenting to their business model. There's evidence of this with the phone survey that PCCS commissioned by EPIC-MRA; as well as, the concentration areas they are launching this Fall at P-CEP. With a little competition everyone improves.

A couple more thoughts about teaching as a profession: I'm fascinated by the MEA's insistence on making newer, younger teachers sacrifice more of their earnings when compared to veteran teachers. Younger teachers, who already earn much less, are now forced to pay a greater percentage of their salary into the Retirement Fund. When cuts need to be made, it's the newest teachers who get the layoffs. We have a young teacher in our neighborhood school that was highly sought after each year by parents, and at the end of every year, she gets a layoff notice and wonders whether she'll get called back in the Fall. So, there are many factors contributing to whether teaching is a worthwhile means of making a living. Sidebar: The UAW has done something similar in a more dramatic fashion - signing up for the two tier wage structure instead of making sacrifices across the board.

Well dswan you told me you didn't want to argue with me anymore but since you keep responding to me I have to set the record straight. Why? Because I am tired of the lies and propaganda. I am tired of people not knowing what on earth is going on out there. Yes, there are a lot of things that go into creating a great educational environment. The number one keys to success are qualified personnel, teaching tools, parents who value education, low poverty, and the student's own intrinsic drive. There is a great need for reform in the charter movement. I have told you that I know MANY people who have worked in charters. The story I told above was the same place where the CEO owned a Rolex and road around in a Mercedes. My own brother worked in one where he was paid $29,000 a year. This was the school where the CEO owned the jet. This same owner wanted teachers to walk around the neighborhoods to drum-up business for the school-(laughable). (Also, how can anyone save 401k money on a salary this low?) When you talk about what is happening to the younger teacher I point directly to Lansing. If they would adequately try to fund education and not try to starve it out, then the young teacher would have a job. Instead, they want to help low paying charters to proliferate. One of my friend's brothers worked at Univ. Prep and he kept getting laid-off every time he was supposed to get a raise. Yes the profession is being changed in a very negative way.

There are a lot of disaffected educators out there due to the very movement you are promoting. The whole for-profit nonsense needs to end. It has merely set up a way for "business people" to rob the taxpayers. By the way, are you associated with Colbeck? You sound like a politician. If so, it is a shame that he would make so many negative comments about PCCS. Well, I'll provide some things for you to look at because something needs to change. http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/02/10/white-hat-must-give-records-to-charters.html

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/2012/02/desperate_times_in_cleveland_a.html

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/schoolchoice/documents/briefs/brief_stuit_smith_ncspe.pdf
Also, go read the study about charter teachers by WMU's Garry Mirron. Why did you mention the UAW? I don't even know any members to even say if what you are saying is true. This is why I think you are connected to Colbeck. Politicians should have taken more time to look at what is going on out there. It seems that they have been more concerned with pleasing their lobbyists who are out to make a buck and really don't care about the education of children. The conditions in a lot of charters need to change.

DeeDee, funny you should mention lobbyists. Did you know that the lobbyinst spending the greatest amount in Michigan last year was "Students First", spending a total of $1 Million? That is Michelle Rhee's organization. She is the one they fired in the Washington DC schools when it was determined that her vast "improvements" in test scores were from cheating. And she is the one giving advice to Colbeck, etc. ha ha...great, huh?

So let's put 2+2 together here...why spend 1 Million if you are a business? Oh yeah! For a chance to make many more millions. Believe me, she isn't spending this money because she wants our kids to get a better education! WAKE UP PEOPLE!

DeeDee, I am not a politician, but if I could go back in time, it's a career path I would explore. Like Denise, I work in IT. Other than the op-ed piece above, I know little of Senator Colbeck, I'm not familiar with any negative comments he made about PCCS, maybe you can provide a link. In the upcoming election, I will likely support Republicans in the state and Democrats at the federal level. I'm a Dad who has spent time in our neighborhood school and our charter school. The rich public school education that I got in Michigan 20 years ago is gone; in my opinion due largely to MEA contracts that required cuts to programs. I'm also a taxpayer and have no interest in supporting unsustainable benefits or tax credits, from defined benefit retirement plans to film credits and senior income tax exemptions. I haven't read Prof. Miron's studies, but I have read his interviews. Until this state moves from measuring proficiency (MEAP) to growth (NWEA's MAP), we won't have a concrete answer on which schools are succeeding, nor will we be able to measure which teachers are effective. I can't say that I'm particularly interested in Charter scandals in Florida, Ohio, or elsewhere; I'm more interested in what's taking place in Michigan: identifying which schools, traditional or charter, are effective and learning what they're doing.

Michelle's Rhee's tenure in DC was controversial, but listen to the message of Students First. They advocate for policies that put the most effective teachers in classrooms, period. If that means changing tenure (which Michigan is working, thankfully), so be it. Do you disagree with this goal?

As I said previously, the Michigan Public School Employees Retirement System is underfunded by $45.3 Billion dollars. Where is this money going to come from? Currently, school districts are paying a surcharge - a percentage of their teacher salaries; slated for 27% in the 2012-13 year; up from 16% in 2008. Should we continue taking money out of the classroom to pay for this benefit, raise taxes by several billion dollars, or change the benefit?

dswan - I am all in favor of having the best teachers in the classroom. I say that instead of testing all the time, we actually allow parents to voice concerns, to which the administration actually DOES IT'S JOB and follows up - sits in, warns, etc. and eventually terminates teachers that don't make the grade. There are procedures for this, but most administrators would rather blame Tenure or the unions for their lack of following up. Student's First, has one goal, and that goal is to make Michelle Rhee a lot of money. Do you really think that out of the goodness of her heart, she spent 1 million dollars in Michigan last year lobbying our congresspersons to take the caps off (many for profit) Charter Schools? If her goal was to improve our schools, she could have donated that money instead to a group that really does have the kid's best interests at heart, not wining and dining our congress! I hate to repeat myself, but follow the money! Businesses don't do things for "everyone's benefit" any more, although they used to. Everyone needs to understand that right now. This is capitalism!

Do you know WHY the retirement fund is underfunded? It was RAIDED in the 90's and the funding formula changed!! Now, oh whoa is me, it looked like we kicked the can too far down the road. This infuriates me because that is what we always do. Take the money now and make the lack of it in the future someone else's problem.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/02/10/white-hat-must-give-records-to-charters.html

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/2012/02/desperate_times_in_cleveland_a.html

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/schoolchoice/documents/briefs/brief_stuit_smith_ncspe.pdf
Well dswan, now you sound like a charter owner. The whole nonsense about the "best teachers" is a red herring. As shown above, the best and most experienced teachers are in the public schools because the charter environment is terrible. You forget, I know many people directly in the field. You should see what is going on in the merit pay arena-a complete joke. It is so disorganized and pathetic that any true educator knows it's all fouled up. It isn't measuring anything. Student's First is just a political agenda of wolves in sheep's clothing. The idea that they care about minority children is laughable. They are paving the way for the most greedy people in Michigan and other states to come in and completely exploit the neediest children. Also, do you think charter administrators don't show favoritism and keep their friends in jobs who are not the best people in the building? You'll never get rid of this problem because it exists in every sector of society-even charters. Also, I know that teachers who were highly motivated and wanted the best for their children have been burned out by the charter environment-low pay, low appreciation, few materials to teach with, and totally incompetent

leadership. You can fool people only for so long and now all of the truth is coming out. I certainly hope you don't believe in the for-profit idea for schools. It is full of fraud. People who support this agenda are ruining education in this state. Who on earth would want to become a teacher when there is a constant drum beat to fire teachers and lower their salaries? But Michelle Rhee doesn't mind. She is filling her pockets full of money from her billionaire donors. Our country is full of cronyism and the real reform needs to start in politics. We need new politicians. Wouldn't you like to go into the booth in the fall and vote "none of the above"? You know darn well that "none of the above" are going to do a darn thing for the common man out here.

http://www.minnpost.com/learning-curve/2012/03/long-last-michelle-rhees-funders-revealed

It's too bad our country has taken a turn for the worst. The whole for-profit charter movement is a scam. Rhee is just out to make herself rich and famous. She barely had any teaching experience and she was held up as some kind of education guru. She was nothing more than a political hack. America needs a new political party that really represents the people and not the wealthy few.

Does Colbeck even believe in representative democracy at the local level? It doesn't sound like it. What about the common man's ability to run his own affairs? Madison said, "If men were angels there would be no need for government." But even he knew it was necessary to use checks and balances to keep greedy, power hungry people in check. The for-profit charter industry fails in this arena. There are no real checks on the system. It needs an overhaul-desperately. Politicians have failed to protect the people of this state from having their tax dollars completely exploited.

Charters are not the worst of it, though. The worst is the virtual school bill that Colbeck "wrote" (he probably copied it from the ALEC bills - he is NOT a LAWYER). It will take the cap off Virtual schools in Michigan. Colbeck has no children, but he knows what's best for YOUR kids, just ask him, he'll tell you. I know a teacher that went to meet with him to explain how his $2100 salary cut was effecting his family. Colbeck said to him "What makes you think your family is so special?"

Oh yes, Colbeck...the guy that said, when talking about the teacher's union: "Fry cooks don't have unions, why should teachers?"

Colbeck. Knows. Everything. He is the worst - except for maybe Pavlov, who is the head of the education committee yet didn't graduate from his community college.

At this point, I question whether this is the best medium for our discussion, while I have enjoyed it, I think a lively lunch debate would have been better. To respond to DeeDee; I absolutely support 'for profit' schools; as well as, traditional schools that are pushing the envelope, willing to try new models. I don't see a significant difference between a superintendent earning $265K/year (Ann Arbor's Patricia Green), teachers earning well over $100K when benefits are included; and a corporation that's developed a successful program and can bring it to market. Abuses ought to lead to greater transparency. Charters today are forcing traditional districts to rethink their offerings, while providing parents an alternative. One can cherry pick the failures and paint all charters with the same brush if they so choose; but the same can be done with traditional schools and we'll be no further ahead. I'd love to see a spotlight shown on schools that are beating the odds; learn how they do it; and how it can be duplicated. Instead, the focus is on negativity in order to protect a status quo that's mediocre at best. As far as Students First goes, if one dollar of their contributions supported tenure reform in Michigan, I'd say it was a worthy enterprise. I have seen no data on merit pay that would enable me to label it a success or failure; but I know my annual raise and bonus are a powerful motivator for me and my colleagues.

With the issues on the table, one can't overstate the importance of the upcoming election. While 'None of the Above' would surely win a lot of votes, it won't answer what direction the majority feels each level of government ought to take. So, we have to prioritize the issues in our mind and vote for the guy or gal who aligns with our views. Given the comments above, I'm confident that many are performing their due diligence to prepare for their choices in November.

One last thing: I think if you are passionate about your career; you figure out a way to make it work, up to and including sacrifices to get your foot in the door; or find other opportunities when the present one didn't pan out. Teaching requires a passionate, motivated breed of individuals. What's more demoralizing - realizing a school doesn't align with your values and having to look elsewhere or having to make up the deficit left by a student's previous teacher who will be around until retirement earning the same compensation as everyone else? Opportunities for improvement abound.

Well dswan I've been away from my computer for a few days but I'm back to set the record straight once again. You mentioned Ann Arbor schools and made an example of their district. How many of their teachers actually make $100,000 a year? Also, the superintendents salary-you've proven my point. The people of Ann Arbor know exactly how much money she makes. It is not cloaked in secrecy. Also, she has to answer to the school board. Ann Arbor has an outstanding district due to the fact that it is a highly educated, well-off, and vibrant community. They have a district that is able to provide a wide curriculum that expands a wide variety of talents. I would also so that the people of that community highly prize democratic participation in their local schools. I'll bet they love the freedom of expression and despise the censorship of literature and science. I'll bet they want a teaching force that doesn't live in fear from an autocratic ruler. You wrote about a teacher who will be there until their retirement. I'm not sure why you view this in such a negative light. But you forget, I know exactly what happens in charter schools. The young teachers turnover at such a high rate that none will be left for retirement. The teachers go through a few years of teaching and never get real raises. You see, the charters often have a sweat shop atmosphere that intimidate workers and suppress wages. Of course there will be none at retirement age because they were burned out years ago.

The money is concentrated at the top. And yes, an annual raise would be nice. I've told you my friend works at a charter and hasn't received a real raise in 4 yrs. The fact that Snyder supported the expansion of charters makes no sense. It is an inefficient use of taxpayer dollars and taxpayer owned spaces. Why would you pay for more school buildings to open? Completely foolish. But I have to respond to Debbie's story. It is too bad that a politician would treat someone in their constituency with such disregard. I'll bet he never treated out of state lobbyist in the same fashion. Debbie you need to tell the teacher to read the links I have provided. A lot of public school teachers don't really realize what powerful forces have lined up against them and they are in the fight of their lives. http://seattleducation2010.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/how-to-tell-if-your-school-district-is-infected-by-the-broad-virus/
This is why no one feels that they can trust their own politicians.
http://www.thecherrycreeknews.com/news-mainmenu-2/1-latest/5838-parents-group-hits-back-at-billionaire-broads-influence-on-education.html

Here is a great example of what happens at many charters:

http://ednotesonline.blogspot.com/2010/11/cathie-black-on-board-of-harlem-village.html
See what I mean? The undue pay for overseeing a few schools, the high turnover rate, and the incompetent leadership from a "business leader". (Remember the leader of Ann Arbor schools manages a large volume of schools.

I am telling you what is happening out there. You have tried to paint teachers as the villains in order to avert people's eyes away from the true monster that lurks in the corner waiting to destroy one of our democratic institutions. You are supporting a system that devalues an educated personnel that actually went into the education field because they wanted to help develop children in many ways. Not because they were out to make a profit at any cost. Yes, the current pro profit charter movement should be stopped because it is undermining many of our democratic values. I saw a charter profiled on MSNBC ( propaganda tool for charters) today and knew it was a bunch of baloney. A preacher had opened a school for dropouts which sit in front of computers to educate themselves. My friend knows this is a joke because he has worked in a school just like this. How many dropouts are capable of teaching themselves Algebra, Chemistry, etc. These are difficult subjects for any student. Can you imagine trying to teach yourself these subjects when you are performing several grade levels behind your peers? What a con on the people. Also, Debbie ask your friend if he knows that TFA is in Detroit. Why on earth is TFA in a state that has massive unemployment and has laid-off tons of teachers? Did you know they place teachers in front of their own graduates. Ask yourself what local college is training these teachers. Is it U of M? Where? These are not education majors. They get fly by night

training and take jobs from other people in Michigan. Another con on the people. But I guess when it is backed by a billionaire, politicians will let them do anything they want. So yes, I'm fighting against a system that is a pernicious attack on our democratic values and eroding the education profession. I will keep setting the record straight because my friends are at a low point and deserve so much more. As I stated before, they hoped for so much more. They have been mistreated by politicians who have no clue about what is really happening out there. And they are demoralized by the fact that none of them seem to care. Well, I'm done writing for tonight. Forgive me for any writing mistakes. I am merely writing and pressing submit without checking for mistakes.

The AAPS School Board is hardly a model of democracy after a meeting in which admin salaries were removed from the agenda, then added back hours later after the public left the meeting...http://www.annarbor.com/news/ann-arbor-board-of-education-narrowly-passes-salary-increases-for-compsa-allen/
This is a district that's now facing a $16 million defecit.

The Detroit News reports there are over 300 teachers in Wayne, Macomb, and Oakland counties that earn over $100,000 - NOT including benefits.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20101118/METRO/11180420

In 2009-2010, the average teacher salary in Michigan was $63,000; when benefits are added in it brings the average to over $85,000. I was unable to find more recent data, and benefit costs have decreased due to policy changes in Lansing.

A highly effective teacher is worth $100,000. But since raises are automatic based on years of service and degrees, not measurable effectiveness; we can't say that teachers at the top of the pay scale are the most effective.

I agree with your point on transparency, and would support legislation that required more of it from all schools. And if I had shared the same observations as DeeDee, my views of Charters would be similar. But my experience has been quite the opposite.

The thing is there are changes traditional schools could make to enhance their curriculum, bring their costs in line, and improve teacher accountability that would put an end to the demand for Charters.

Well I guess I have to set the record straight again. I believe the 2009-2010 salary average is no longer true since there was a massive teacher retirement at the end of the 2010 school year. So, I think the salaries are lower now. But, I'm not sure why you thought the salaries were so ridiculous for a group of experienced educators. The 300 figure includes a group of thousands of teachers. That group would be a small percentage who were highly educated and had a lot of experience. I've noticed that you claim there is no value in this. I disagree. I'll bet most parents would want a highly educated teacher. I'll bet the hypocrites in Lansing and DC have their children taught in classes with small class sizes and highly educated teachers. Are you from Michigan? I think you are an out of state lobbiest for Students First or Mackinac Center of something. I heard a guy on the radio from Mackinaw Center that sounded just like you. About the Ann Arbor board- The public has every right to vote each and every one of them out of office if they disapprove of their service. (Unlike a charter) Also, I have no idea what Green's deal was but I know she doesn't own the school buildings that were paid for by the taxpayers and I know she doesn't own the property within the building that was paid for by the taxpayer (unlike a charter owner-what a scam.) Did you see how DPS is opening a virtual charter? When I read it I thought dswan would love this. I wondered would he send his children

there? I wonder if Bill Gates would? I couldn't help but wonder who would want to? The whole business model needs to make a profit. So in order to make a profit the wages have to stay low. So, you use people for a few years then burn them out or fire them. This is why you want to end tenure so that the teachers can be fired when their pay starts to get higher. You keep wages and benefits low in order to keep profits going. I was offended by your earlier comment about an older teacher. Is no one allowed to age in this country? You assume that just because a teacher is older they are no good. This is ridiculous. My mother worked as an effective teacher until she retired. You sound like an ageist too. It is just easier to use and intimidate younger workers. I really don't get the need to attack everyday workers. The whole need to privatize everything is scary. Who is next? The firemen? The police? Doesn't that sound creepy? Someone's own personal police force. So weird. Do you think our country is drifting into some strange form of privatized fascism? A weird world where the wealthy can afford every privatized service-fire, police, education, health care, etc. and everyone else is is left with the scraps. I don't know, I just wonder about the direction some people want to take our country. What do you think dswan? Also, I know DPS' salaries top out at around 62,000. Their administrators prob. make around 80. Nothing excessive. The Supt. makes around 450 doesn't he?

The weakest curricula are at the charter high school level. Their are many that don't provide a wide level of the arts. I don't know how you plan to really show accountability. I think this is impossible to show effectively. It is just silly. But I will say this: I have talked to many people who have worked in charters and have never heard anyone say they were happy. There is definitely something wrong with the system. When you have people working in some the toughest urban environments it does nothing to treat them with total disregard. People have a hard time showing up for work and want to quit in droves. Fear and intimidation have a negative effect on motivation. It really does the opposite of which it tries to achieve.

DeeDee, I find it amusing how easy it is for you to jump to conclusions. I prefer to stick to hard data. I live in the Plymouth-Canton school district and graduated from the Ann Arbor Public Schools; I think both districts perform well given their constraints; but I've found the curriculum to be superior at our NHA charter school. I agree, $100,000 is an acceptable salary for an effective teacher; but we don't base salary on effectiveness in the current system; instead teachers get automatic increases based on years served and degrees. These are worthwhile considerations to get hired, but raises in my opinion ought to be based wholly on student growth. I wonder how many organizations would survive if their employees got a raise simply for being around for one more year; evidently just those supported by taxes. If I lived in Detroit, I'd be happy that legislation was passed in the 1990's that gave me an alternative to DPS, I'd research all the options, and select the best fit for my child.

"but raises in my opinion ought to be based wholly on student growth" And this is the problem, isn't it? There really doesn't seem to be a good way to quantify that, is there? I know exactly one girl that my daughter met at MSU that is now teaching at a charter elementary school in Taylor. She is making next to nothing (I think she started at 18k?), but she got a raise last year. This year, she might not because she has a couple of problem students. Yes, her raise depends on her student test scores. So dswan, I assume that you agree with this method. Do you think that all kids are equal in Taylor? Do you think that if the principal doesn't like the teacher for whatever reason, they won't put poor students in that teacher's room? I think they will. This type of thing is why teachers ended up unionized in the first place.

I would also like to point out that if your district has a special education facility, like Northville does, those teachers do make more money. I'm sure that they love to average in those salaries in before they publish the "average wage". They make more because they work pretty much year around, those children lose too much when they are out of school. I've never bothered to check, but it would be interesting to know if special ed is included in those "average wage" figures.

Good question Denise. Measuring growth is a big issue, and it's one we'll hear more about as the state develops a model for teacher evaluations. The MEAP test does not measure growth, it measures proficiency. A student that starts the year performing below grade level will not be proficient on the MEAP, yet that student is still capable of academic growth. NWEA's MAP test measures growth. This progressive computer based test is taken in September, January and May. Test questions change based on whether the previous questions were answered correctly; results are available immediately (vs. MEAP, which is taken in Sept, results come out in January when the year is already half over). At our NHA school, teachers meet one on one with students to discuss the results - areas of strength and weakness, and the students define goals in those areas, then shares those goals at parent conferences.

Given all the work it takes to become a teacher, and the work required day in and day out; an $18,000 starting salary is not only unacceptable, but also disturbing. I don't know enough about your friend's merit raise situation in Taylor to say whether or not I support it; but in general, I believe growth should be a consideration for raises. I think the target should be an average for your class; so that one or two struggling kids does not equate to no raise; and I think the administration should be aware of each struggling kid and have a plan of action to bring them up to par.

Sorry dswan, I know you are defending your NHA program but I know first hand that what Debbie has written is true. I know there is an NHA school in Taylor (is the one she mentioned yours?) I just talked to someone who worked in the one in Taylor and they said the environment was terrible and stressful. I feel very sorry for the young teacher making 18,000-like I said "Wal Mart profession"-terrible. Maybe she could qualify for a job at DPS. But NO! They are going to hire TFA grads instead. Also, I'm sorry to insult you but I know there is no way an NHA high school can come close to the curriculum that are provided through large districts like Northville and PCCS. I can tell you right now the "growth" measurements are invalid. My friend's school uses the same type of program and he has seen odd results that zigzagged. You have to remember that students get sick of testing and do not take tests that "don't count" for them seriously. Have you ever tried to give standardized tests to seniors at the end of the year? (or any other grade level) I just really question those results. There is just too much that is murky in the whole accountability arena. It all sounds good on paper but in practice it is a whole different ball game. Merit pay is a joke and has never been proven to work. I'll tell you one thing that my friend thinks needs to end in education. The constant testing that occurs in charters!! Tests in the fall, mid year, the end, another for merit pay!! Test! Test! Test!

I just think we've gone too far. My friend and I were wondering just how much is spent on testing now instead of the classroom. We were saying that we should enter the testing business because it just seems to be proliferating everywhere. I think the money should be used for materials or something in the classroom. That young teacher in Taylor deserves so much more. I hope she is getting support and mentoring because I know the first years of teaching are tough. Unfortunately, the merit pay concept can cause staff to turn against each other and compete for students, etc. (I'm sorry. I just disagree with you dswan). I just read that a law passed in December that said that families aren't supposed to be staff members/board members in charters. Is this true? This seriously needs to be implemented. There are some serious problems out there.

You keep saying I jump to conclusions! Don't you remember me saying I know a lot of soldiers in the field?

DeeDee I actually agree with many of your statements above. If any of my kids' teachers were paid $18000 I'd have to seriously reconsider our choice; and it's possible that this is just what the lack of transparency is attempting to cover. Our move to charter was based on many factors, so I'd have to look at the whole picture and not just one data point (salary). Measuring growth is elusive, but I still think the variables, measure of error, and classroom demographics can be accounted for in setting a reasonable target. And I'd advocate for replacing MEAP with MAP. It would behoove the union to come to the table, accept that growth will be part of evaluations, and help set the parameters. It's not really a shocker that any teacher would say that it's stressful, regardless of school format. 25-30 kids from varying backgrounds, yes, it's going to be stressful. So, is my job; that's why I'm paid to do it. I agree, the breadth of the classes offered at P-CEP is impressive, but with 6,000 kids, classes in multiple buildings, a few hundred kids for each counselor and teacher; I'm not sure I'll be ready to send my ninth grader off without knowing whether there will be a single adult there looking out for him. The presumptions I object are those that state I am aligned with a particular ideology based on my comments here or that all charters are wastelands based on the few people you know.

An interesting piece on the future of teacher retirement and MSPERS:

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2012/03/mspers_charts_tell_the_story_o.html#incart_river_default

Well I'm back and you have missed my point. The tests have not been shown to be valid tools in evaluating teachers. The reason why the teachers are stressed is because they are being measured using unreliable and ridiculous tools. Why would you want to use this tool then? People like Bill Gates are promoting this garbage and he has no clue what it is like to teach in a classroom, particularly in the most neediest areas. He thinks he is doing something good but he is doing a tremendous amount of damage out here. No teacher should be judged on tests where numbers of students are just filling in bubbles and don't care. As far as your daughter goes- It's time to let go of the reins. I've had children at PCEP and they have done fine. Do you even let your daughter out of the house? Do you follow her everywhere? What are you afraid of? I don't blame other children or adults for the actions of my children. They have been taught well and they know right from wrong. If you know any kids at PCEP (which it sounds like you don't) you will hear that they are just regular teens. As far as the "Union" goes that you mentioned I have no Idea what you are talking about. I still think you are a paid lobbiest or a charter owner. If you are a charter owner or lobbiest you need to find out what the heck is going on out there. Since you claim you are just a parent I will ask you to take a long hard look at the staff members and how they are treated. I know darn well that they aren't paid well.

You got me, DeeDee. I'm a paid lobbyist who reads Patch articles from every town in America posting comments that support my sponsors. When all else fails, make presumptions and question one's parenting choices, as if I'm the only PCCS parent that has concerns with the P-CEP. All just when the conversation was getting interesting. Too bad. Best of luck in your attempts to maintain the status quo, buckle up you're in for a wild ride. Gotta go, one of my sponsors just landed their private helicopter on my roof.

Plus, they deserve something to put back for retirement. People keep wanting to put all of societies' problems on teachers. At my friends' school the teachers have the burden to solve problems with tardiness, kids not turning in homework and classwork, and overall apathy. This is sad. These are problems that should rest squarely on the parents and the students themselves. I object to the silly use of tests that waste instruction time. But, the biggest problem with the charter business models is that they are run from the top down and teachers get very little respect. There is a great deal of nepotism and cronyism and the state of Michigan is at fault for allowing this to go on. People should not be allowed to make a profit off of education. I'm sorry but you are flat out wrong. Goodbye for now I'm going to go play the lottery since as I told you my retirement was smashed to pieces in the downturn.

Another link for your consideration: It's not just parents that are concerned about supervision at P-CEP, according this survey P-CEP teachers are overwhelmingly concerned:
http://www.p-cap.org/pdf/code_conduct_comparison.pdf

Lastly, the Center for Michigan is conducting a survey on education policy, I encourage everyone to share their input.
http://www.thecenterformichigan.net/

NEWS FROM THE FRONT...my friend's school just got thier 6th Spanish teacher for the year and an new principal installed. My friend feels like he has slid down the rabbit hole into a surreal educational netherworld where a full staff never remains in place and administrators are placed who have absolutely no experience in the classroom.Remember-low pay, no real raises in 4 years and no matching 401k. But I have to continue to tell my friend's story. But I feel like David felt battling Goliath. I know that the people who have lined up against my friend and his colleagues have far more moeny and power. But often people with a great deal of power and money are surrounded by psychophants who never say "you are wrong" and politicians don't have the guts to stand up to them either. So I have to keep fighting the good fight for my friends. So I will keep battling the lies and propaganda. But, good news is on the horizon- I heard that the big three plan on hiring a great number of people soon. So what does that mean? My friend and his colleagues will be running out the doors of thier charter. All of his colleagues have already said they looking for new jobs. Absolutely no one wants to stay. No One! Who are the losers here? The children of the city who will never have a stable education. The children who have alredy been shortchanged becasue they don't have any classes involving the arts and none that involve any vocational training or extra interests. But who will win? The "CEO" and

his family. The "lords of the manor" who rule with impunity all the while making a profit and building an aristocracy off of the taxpayers dime. Yes. The business model works well for the arisotcracy. 10 years from now if the authorizer revokes your charter you have made a fortune. What a world. So my challenge to Senator Colbeck, Gov. Snyder, and others who have voted to lift the cap. When are you going to do something to end the absolute corruption involved in charters? I want to know? Do they not realize how corrupt they look? When everyone takes a closer look at what is happening don't they realize that they will be attached to corrupt people? Also, why on earth was Snyder appointing Covington? A Broad grad. who left KC schools in shambles. BEWARE MIchigan. It's amazing what money can buy.
http://parentsacrossamerica.org/2011/09/warning-to-michigan-parents-and-teachers-about-john-covington/
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2011/09/improvement_did_not_happen_kan.html
Remember when you asked Debbie about religious schools? Here is something I keep reading about:
Go look up info. about the Gulen Movement. Do you see the danger in not keeping schools under control of a representative democracy?
As far as your fear tactic about PCEP- of course every parent worries about their children. But of course, you are trying to undermine a district in Colbeck's area. I hope he stands up for the district. Well time to go. I would have written earlier but I was busy

watching March Madness. Unfortunately the team I picked didn't win. Well, tomorrow my friend will slide back down the rabbit hole. Pray for his safe journey. And pray that he and his colleagues will be delivered from evil.